Saturday, December 05, 2009
Standing Row at QPR...Views of Football Fan Groups
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- Kilburn Times reports Standing Row at QPR
Football League - THE BIG INTERVIEW
Posted on: 03.12.2009
The two leading supporter's group representatives, Malcolm Clarke and Dave Boyle, have spoken exclusively to football-league.co.uk to give their opinions on the current state of the game.
Clarke is the elected Chair of the Football Supporters Federation (FSF) whilst Boyle is the Chief Executive of Supporters Direct (SD) and both men are well known within the corridors of football's highest powers acting as crucial links between the terraces and the boardrooms.
Boasting 142,000 individual fans, the FSF is the national supporter's organisation whilst SD provides advice to trusts on how to organise and acquire a collective shareholding in their clubs on a not-for-profit basis for re-investment.
In the following interview, the pair tackle the hottest issues including foreign ownership of clubs, the positives and negatives of the current structure as well as the community work underway through clubs across England and Wales.
Football League: How has the game improved for fans?
Malcolm Clarke: That is a complicated question to answer. At the top of the game there are a lot of traditional fans who have been priced out of watching live games because of ticket prices that are way above the rate of inflation.
However, there have been a lot of improvements in The Football League with a lot of the clubs taking the lead with initiatives, especially when it comes to attracting families. I think Football League fans would, on the whole, be happy with the product they get. Plus the Championship is very competitive and that is want fans want to see.
Ticket pricing is very good at Football League clubs; Bradford for example is very innovative. The fear of the wealth gap between the Championship and the Premier League is still there and the gap should be reduced. At the moment there is still a temptation for Championship clubs to go for broke in an attempt to join the land of milk and honey [the Premier League].
Last season there were massive points deductions for some clubs in The Football League which was needed at the time to prevent another situation like that at Leicester City but we welcome the measures of The Football League to get clubs to give assurances about payment of tax bills before entering financial difficulty, not after. The Football League is moving on, there is now much greater regulation at the front end which is stopping clubs from living beyond their means. We hope and believe that this will result in clubs paying their tax bills and the arrangement that HMRC can notify the League of defaulters is very healthy.
Dave Boyle: The most obvious thing would be the attendances, clearly fans are liking what they see - especially at a Football League level. The numbers don't lie and overall the trend is positive and it shows that people still love football.
FL: How does football need to move forward and improve?
MC: Money needs to be spread down the pyramid, which like any pyramid, needs to have a strong base and we are completely against the idea of a 'Premier League 2' division because the game's wealth needs to be spread more evenly to keep a competitive balance in football. Promotion and relegation must be retained at all levels.
The Football League is not in danger from the wealth and superiority of the Premier League, but the danger is for those clubs attempting to make the step up from the Championship and being tempted to act imprudently.
Also, people who go to away games are the industry's best customers and it is important that football looks after their best customers.
Discrimination against away supporters still happens at some clubs which is clearly wrong. The Football League should abolish their policy of allowing clubs to do four local promotions a year because away fans are often charged more to watch these games - these kinds of offers should also be available to the away support. It is not a massive problem but it does still happen so removing this ruling from the handbook would help.
DB: I am an AFC Wimbledon fan and in the past teams used to share the gate receipts and that was hugely positive for smaller-town clubs who didn't suffer as a result. But now that doesn't happen and fans are depressed about it.
A crucial part of football is knowing that one you might be able to get to the top-flight however improbably, such as Carlisle United in 1974. In the past there was an outside chance that that could happen but now there's a sense that this just isn't the case anymore. In reality, the difference between the improbable and the impossible is small; in football, the difference is enormous.
I would agree that The League has made great stride in getting its house in order but we have to and need to celebrate the fact that we have the richest football culture, and I am not talking about money. We have very strong gate numbers and if we are proud of it then we have to have a structure that allows clubs to go from the bottom to the top and the top to the bottom.
We have to introduce a more equitable distribution of finances if we want it to become meaningful.
FL: In your opinion, is the increase of foreign ownership having a negative impact on football?
MC: For me nationality is not the issue. What is important is knowing who the potential owners are and why they want to buy a football club. You need to know whether they have a sustainable business plan and that they are suitable people to run the club. We would like to see stronger regulation in the testing of potential owners.
I think that the fit and proper persons test is based too much on financial issues and concentrates too heavily on the rear-view mirror. The owners need to be suitable and have a sustainable plan for the future and although progress has been made compared to 10 years ago, The League needs to look at moving on to the next stage in terms of governance of club ownership.
It is very unhealthy for clubs to have very large debts with a single owner and I would like to see more regulation of debt. Debt in a business sense is not a bad thing as long as it is part of a business plan.
Personally, in the long term the preferred model should be a cooperative mutual ownership. Look at Barcelona - you don't get much bigger than them and they are owned by their members, as are all the top German clubs. Although that is not achievable now it should be a long term aspiration.
Some fans are frustrated if their owners don't connect with the local community around the club.
DB: We are in favour of accountability for fans. There is little mechanism in place for dealing with people in power in football who are making wrong or bad decisions and we need to create better ways of challenge these people in high positions.
The problem with football is that people are too loyal to their clubs and they don't fight to have changes made. They are not like normal consumers who make sure they are getting a good deal being picky with their purchases. In other business, people would move on and things would change in response. At the end of the day, clubs know fans will turn up week in, week out - that is what makes us fans.
FL: How important is the community work carried out by Football League Clubs?
MC: This is an area where many Football League Clubs often take the lead. Despite social mobility, and by that I mean people moving away from their hometowns, people still associate very strongly with their local community and still want to see the link between their club and that community.
That community link is still vital because teams carry the names of their local town and even if people have moved away from that area, it is still extremely important to them because a football club puts their town on the map. This is especially true in The Football League where teams are constantly fighting to get media coverage.
DB: It is very pleasing to see people grasping the Enjoy the Match and Fans of the Future campaigns because with an eye to the future, a 10-year old bum on a seat is more important than a 40-year old bum on a seat and it is great to see The Football League recognising this. Clubs need to have a view for who their fan base is as well as how big it is, and the efforts by The League are very welcome and credit should go to theme for doing it.
There is an increasingly ageing population and we need to something to ensure that we are not behind it, other countries tend to have lower prices so they don't need to introduce these kinds of initiatives but The League should still be congratulated.
FL: Policing of football grounds has been raised as an issue, and in particular Section 27 of the Violent Crime Reduction Act of 2006, what's your position?
MC: Section 27 allows the police to ban people from certain areas for up to 48 hours to prevent trouble, but it is piece of legislation that was never designed for a football context but for pubs and clubs on a weekend.
It has been used inappropriately by some police forces; South Yorkshire police have just agreed to pay compensation to Plymouth fans who were prevented from attending their team's match with Doncaster Rovers after the police enforced the Act. We are also investigating similar actions directed at Grimsby fans by Gloucestershire Police during their visit to Cheltenham.
Football supporters still aren't treated as they should be because the image from 1970s and 80s still exists in some people's minds. There is general prejudice towards fans. Some people don't see a diverse group of people and that can sometimes result in institutionalised prejudice.
But football has moved on a great deal. Fights with opposing supporters when they used to try and 'take the other team's end' don't happen now. I feel safer taking my daughter to football than walking near my home on a Saturday night. One problem is that non-football fans often mistake fans' boisterous enthusiasm for criminality.
DB: Our organisation doesn't have a brief on this because we focus more on the ensuring that fans have accountability but I know that it is an issue the FSF are fighting for.
FL: What are you view points on the reintroduction of standing areas in stadia?
MC: It is quite clear that a certain percentage of fans still want to stand and prefer it because it feels more natural. Lord Taylor predicted that after all-seater stadia were introduced [in 1989 following the Hillsborough disaster] fans would soon get used to it and the desire to stand would disappear. But that hasn't happened, if anything, quite the reverse.
It has been demonstrated in Germany for example that you can introduce standing area in complete safety. The Football League, clubs in Leagues 1 and 2 can still have standing areas and that is deemed safe, so why is it safe in those leagues but not in the Championship or Premier League? the notion that the safety of a ground is a function of the level of football played on the pitch is an absurdity.
I think that eventually we will be successful on this front, because the current strategy just isn't working and eventually another approach must emerge. I am optimistic that this will happen and that we will see safe standing areas in grounds again.
DB: My own personal view is the same as Malcolm's, but because Supporter's Direct focuses more on the ensuring that fans have accountability, this is an issue we leave to the FSF.
FL: Do you believe that it is time to introduce goal-line technology into football?
MC: Most supporters that we speak to support goal-line technology. Other technology divides opinion because the human element that referees provide is seen by some as part of the game whereas other believe that the credibility of referees suffers if we don't use technology.
FL: With just seven months to go before South Africa 2010, World Cup fever is setting in. What is your role in the build-up to and during next summer's tournament?
MC: Our members who are going are excited, because South Africa is a different place and most fans won't have been there. The main concerns are personal security and cost for fans but we always provide fans with access to an Embassy wherever England or Wales play.
Our aim is always to give supporters the maximum amount of information on the destination, such as the local cultures, the potential risks, transport and accommodation. If we give the maximum information possible, people then have to make their own decisions.
I think that England can do well and hopefully we can win the bid for 2018/2022. I remember the excitement in 1966 and we are doing all that we can to bring the World Cup back again in one of those years.
FL: In your opinion, who are the strongest candidates to take the Carling Cup, Championship, League 1 and League 2 crowns this season?
MC: Well I'm a Stoke City fan and my second team is York City so I hope that the former stay clear of The Football League and the latter get into it!!
Otherwise, in the Carling Cup, I think Arsenal's youngsters could do well if they can keep their current form going. Leicester City have impressed me so-far this season. I saw them at Queens Park Rangers and they looked very strong so that would be my prediction for the Championship. Sooner or later Leeds United have to bounce back and I think that this could be thier season to get out of League 1. In League 2 it would be great to see one of the old traditional Football League clubs gain promotion. I would love to see Rochdale go up, there have been in that division for so many years and come so close it would be great to see them step up to League 1.
DB: I hope that the Carling Cup is won be a team for who it really means something. They should thrust the trophy into the air like they have just won the Champions League. I come from a family of Preston North End fans, it is a very admirable club who have lost two play-off finals in recent years and I think it would be good for Preston to gain promotion from the Premier League - it would be wonderful for the game to have the original English champions there. In League 1, it would have to be Exeter City because they are a flagship trust in The Football League, the club is fantastically well run and they deserve to keep their position in The League. Their efforts show that being owned by your fans isn't going to lead you to relegation. I grew up near Rochdale and I think that they deserve not to be the buck of all the quiz questions about the longest stay in the bottom tier so a long-overdue promotion would be wonderful for their long-suffering fans. Football League
- Kilburn Times reports Standing Row at QPR
Football League - THE BIG INTERVIEW
Posted on: 03.12.2009
The two leading supporter's group representatives, Malcolm Clarke and Dave Boyle, have spoken exclusively to football-league.co.uk to give their opinions on the current state of the game.
Clarke is the elected Chair of the Football Supporters Federation (FSF) whilst Boyle is the Chief Executive of Supporters Direct (SD) and both men are well known within the corridors of football's highest powers acting as crucial links between the terraces and the boardrooms.
Boasting 142,000 individual fans, the FSF is the national supporter's organisation whilst SD provides advice to trusts on how to organise and acquire a collective shareholding in their clubs on a not-for-profit basis for re-investment.
In the following interview, the pair tackle the hottest issues including foreign ownership of clubs, the positives and negatives of the current structure as well as the community work underway through clubs across England and Wales.
Football League: How has the game improved for fans?
Malcolm Clarke: That is a complicated question to answer. At the top of the game there are a lot of traditional fans who have been priced out of watching live games because of ticket prices that are way above the rate of inflation.
However, there have been a lot of improvements in The Football League with a lot of the clubs taking the lead with initiatives, especially when it comes to attracting families. I think Football League fans would, on the whole, be happy with the product they get. Plus the Championship is very competitive and that is want fans want to see.
Ticket pricing is very good at Football League clubs; Bradford for example is very innovative. The fear of the wealth gap between the Championship and the Premier League is still there and the gap should be reduced. At the moment there is still a temptation for Championship clubs to go for broke in an attempt to join the land of milk and honey [the Premier League].
Last season there were massive points deductions for some clubs in The Football League which was needed at the time to prevent another situation like that at Leicester City but we welcome the measures of The Football League to get clubs to give assurances about payment of tax bills before entering financial difficulty, not after. The Football League is moving on, there is now much greater regulation at the front end which is stopping clubs from living beyond their means. We hope and believe that this will result in clubs paying their tax bills and the arrangement that HMRC can notify the League of defaulters is very healthy.
Dave Boyle: The most obvious thing would be the attendances, clearly fans are liking what they see - especially at a Football League level. The numbers don't lie and overall the trend is positive and it shows that people still love football.
FL: How does football need to move forward and improve?
MC: Money needs to be spread down the pyramid, which like any pyramid, needs to have a strong base and we are completely against the idea of a 'Premier League 2' division because the game's wealth needs to be spread more evenly to keep a competitive balance in football. Promotion and relegation must be retained at all levels.
The Football League is not in danger from the wealth and superiority of the Premier League, but the danger is for those clubs attempting to make the step up from the Championship and being tempted to act imprudently.
Also, people who go to away games are the industry's best customers and it is important that football looks after their best customers.
Discrimination against away supporters still happens at some clubs which is clearly wrong. The Football League should abolish their policy of allowing clubs to do four local promotions a year because away fans are often charged more to watch these games - these kinds of offers should also be available to the away support. It is not a massive problem but it does still happen so removing this ruling from the handbook would help.
DB: I am an AFC Wimbledon fan and in the past teams used to share the gate receipts and that was hugely positive for smaller-town clubs who didn't suffer as a result. But now that doesn't happen and fans are depressed about it.
A crucial part of football is knowing that one you might be able to get to the top-flight however improbably, such as Carlisle United in 1974. In the past there was an outside chance that that could happen but now there's a sense that this just isn't the case anymore. In reality, the difference between the improbable and the impossible is small; in football, the difference is enormous.
I would agree that The League has made great stride in getting its house in order but we have to and need to celebrate the fact that we have the richest football culture, and I am not talking about money. We have very strong gate numbers and if we are proud of it then we have to have a structure that allows clubs to go from the bottom to the top and the top to the bottom.
We have to introduce a more equitable distribution of finances if we want it to become meaningful.
FL: In your opinion, is the increase of foreign ownership having a negative impact on football?
MC: For me nationality is not the issue. What is important is knowing who the potential owners are and why they want to buy a football club. You need to know whether they have a sustainable business plan and that they are suitable people to run the club. We would like to see stronger regulation in the testing of potential owners.
I think that the fit and proper persons test is based too much on financial issues and concentrates too heavily on the rear-view mirror. The owners need to be suitable and have a sustainable plan for the future and although progress has been made compared to 10 years ago, The League needs to look at moving on to the next stage in terms of governance of club ownership.
It is very unhealthy for clubs to have very large debts with a single owner and I would like to see more regulation of debt. Debt in a business sense is not a bad thing as long as it is part of a business plan.
Personally, in the long term the preferred model should be a cooperative mutual ownership. Look at Barcelona - you don't get much bigger than them and they are owned by their members, as are all the top German clubs. Although that is not achievable now it should be a long term aspiration.
Some fans are frustrated if their owners don't connect with the local community around the club.
DB: We are in favour of accountability for fans. There is little mechanism in place for dealing with people in power in football who are making wrong or bad decisions and we need to create better ways of challenge these people in high positions.
The problem with football is that people are too loyal to their clubs and they don't fight to have changes made. They are not like normal consumers who make sure they are getting a good deal being picky with their purchases. In other business, people would move on and things would change in response. At the end of the day, clubs know fans will turn up week in, week out - that is what makes us fans.
FL: How important is the community work carried out by Football League Clubs?
MC: This is an area where many Football League Clubs often take the lead. Despite social mobility, and by that I mean people moving away from their hometowns, people still associate very strongly with their local community and still want to see the link between their club and that community.
That community link is still vital because teams carry the names of their local town and even if people have moved away from that area, it is still extremely important to them because a football club puts their town on the map. This is especially true in The Football League where teams are constantly fighting to get media coverage.
DB: It is very pleasing to see people grasping the Enjoy the Match and Fans of the Future campaigns because with an eye to the future, a 10-year old bum on a seat is more important than a 40-year old bum on a seat and it is great to see The Football League recognising this. Clubs need to have a view for who their fan base is as well as how big it is, and the efforts by The League are very welcome and credit should go to theme for doing it.
There is an increasingly ageing population and we need to something to ensure that we are not behind it, other countries tend to have lower prices so they don't need to introduce these kinds of initiatives but The League should still be congratulated.
FL: Policing of football grounds has been raised as an issue, and in particular Section 27 of the Violent Crime Reduction Act of 2006, what's your position?
MC: Section 27 allows the police to ban people from certain areas for up to 48 hours to prevent trouble, but it is piece of legislation that was never designed for a football context but for pubs and clubs on a weekend.
It has been used inappropriately by some police forces; South Yorkshire police have just agreed to pay compensation to Plymouth fans who were prevented from attending their team's match with Doncaster Rovers after the police enforced the Act. We are also investigating similar actions directed at Grimsby fans by Gloucestershire Police during their visit to Cheltenham.
Football supporters still aren't treated as they should be because the image from 1970s and 80s still exists in some people's minds. There is general prejudice towards fans. Some people don't see a diverse group of people and that can sometimes result in institutionalised prejudice.
But football has moved on a great deal. Fights with opposing supporters when they used to try and 'take the other team's end' don't happen now. I feel safer taking my daughter to football than walking near my home on a Saturday night. One problem is that non-football fans often mistake fans' boisterous enthusiasm for criminality.
DB: Our organisation doesn't have a brief on this because we focus more on the ensuring that fans have accountability but I know that it is an issue the FSF are fighting for.
FL: What are you view points on the reintroduction of standing areas in stadia?
MC: It is quite clear that a certain percentage of fans still want to stand and prefer it because it feels more natural. Lord Taylor predicted that after all-seater stadia were introduced [in 1989 following the Hillsborough disaster] fans would soon get used to it and the desire to stand would disappear. But that hasn't happened, if anything, quite the reverse.
It has been demonstrated in Germany for example that you can introduce standing area in complete safety. The Football League, clubs in Leagues 1 and 2 can still have standing areas and that is deemed safe, so why is it safe in those leagues but not in the Championship or Premier League? the notion that the safety of a ground is a function of the level of football played on the pitch is an absurdity.
I think that eventually we will be successful on this front, because the current strategy just isn't working and eventually another approach must emerge. I am optimistic that this will happen and that we will see safe standing areas in grounds again.
DB: My own personal view is the same as Malcolm's, but because Supporter's Direct focuses more on the ensuring that fans have accountability, this is an issue we leave to the FSF.
FL: Do you believe that it is time to introduce goal-line technology into football?
MC: Most supporters that we speak to support goal-line technology. Other technology divides opinion because the human element that referees provide is seen by some as part of the game whereas other believe that the credibility of referees suffers if we don't use technology.
FL: With just seven months to go before South Africa 2010, World Cup fever is setting in. What is your role in the build-up to and during next summer's tournament?
MC: Our members who are going are excited, because South Africa is a different place and most fans won't have been there. The main concerns are personal security and cost for fans but we always provide fans with access to an Embassy wherever England or Wales play.
Our aim is always to give supporters the maximum amount of information on the destination, such as the local cultures, the potential risks, transport and accommodation. If we give the maximum information possible, people then have to make their own decisions.
I think that England can do well and hopefully we can win the bid for 2018/2022. I remember the excitement in 1966 and we are doing all that we can to bring the World Cup back again in one of those years.
FL: In your opinion, who are the strongest candidates to take the Carling Cup, Championship, League 1 and League 2 crowns this season?
MC: Well I'm a Stoke City fan and my second team is York City so I hope that the former stay clear of The Football League and the latter get into it!!
Otherwise, in the Carling Cup, I think Arsenal's youngsters could do well if they can keep their current form going. Leicester City have impressed me so-far this season. I saw them at Queens Park Rangers and they looked very strong so that would be my prediction for the Championship. Sooner or later Leeds United have to bounce back and I think that this could be thier season to get out of League 1. In League 2 it would be great to see one of the old traditional Football League clubs gain promotion. I would love to see Rochdale go up, there have been in that division for so many years and come so close it would be great to see them step up to League 1.
DB: I hope that the Carling Cup is won be a team for who it really means something. They should thrust the trophy into the air like they have just won the Champions League. I come from a family of Preston North End fans, it is a very admirable club who have lost two play-off finals in recent years and I think it would be good for Preston to gain promotion from the Premier League - it would be wonderful for the game to have the original English champions there. In League 1, it would have to be Exeter City because they are a flagship trust in The Football League, the club is fantastically well run and they deserve to keep their position in The League. Their efforts show that being owned by your fans isn't going to lead you to relegation. I grew up near Rochdale and I think that they deserve not to be the buck of all the quiz questions about the longest stay in the bottom tier so a long-overdue promotion would be wonderful for their long-suffering fans. Football League
